A Gentoo Developer's Reply...
I received a pretty remarkable comment from a Gentoo developer that I thought I'd share. It's amazing on so many levels. Here it is:
Daniel,
Please DO give up on Gentoo. Gentoo has grown beyond the ability for one man to manage, as your proposal seems to indicate you want ultimate authority. Many developers spoke against your return and few in favor of it, particularly in light of your stringent conditions.
Gentoo was established 1999, not to be confused with the previous Enoch Linux and the number of developers you managed before leaving in 2004 was around 100. Number of developers currently is around 300. Please dont assume that you can come back and things will be your way or the highway or that you can just nestle back into your previous position.
Your offer to help did not spawn the momentum for change that many see now; your offer was in fact AFTER developers began work to rectify the situation. This started when developers spoke up on our internal developer only list and work began there.
We have quite a number of developers who have been Gentoo developers longer than even you were, please allow those folks to continue to run the distribution. Like it or not, Gentoo keeps running and moving forward without your vision or interference. We've gotten by just fine for the past 4 years without you, we'll be just fine. kthxbuhbye.
(EDIT: By request, here's an extra note who those might not understand the remarkable nature of the post. Facts: number of devs when I left the project was in the 250+ range, approximately where it is now, and I explained in my offer that I was not coming back as Chief Architect - the post displays extreme paranoia regarding my offer to help provide assistance and direction for the Foundation, which recently ceased to exist without any public explanation. And, like it or not, the attention Gentoo received recently did result in some very positive changes in the project, for which I thank Donnie, wolf31o2 and others who are stepping up and trying to do their part to make Gentoo better. While some devs are working to improve communications, we have others who continue to undermine their efforts and user relations as a whole by having an axe to grind with anyone who dare offer to help the project, whether that's me posting on my blog or a user filing a bug on bugs.gentoo.org.)
61 comments:
Hello Mr Robbins,
You know, what?
After this message/answer I would go and kick these "leet kids" - which are used to describe themselfs as (Gentoo) developers - so in the nuts by taking Gentoo from their fat hands with an fork of Gentoo.
In contrast to these "leet kids" - who made Gentoo to this (by companies and private persons) unusable mess - you know what (espacially) companies want : A stable platform for services and also for (in house) development.
Today there is not one distribution targetted for development (marketted for devlopment purposes). This could be your chance.
Gentoo has the enourmous potential to be the distribution from which all other (todays) big, known binary distributions (RedHat, Debian) could emerge (pun intended). For this to accomplish there has to be a "stable" management which coordinates the development across all distributions (using Gentoo as base platform to get all debs and rpms). This could be your chance.
Businesses need today a development base to create dynamic services for their SOA platforms/strategies.
Gentoo has the potential to be this dynamic framework to base all SOA platforms on it.
This could be your chance.
Just take Gentoo from the hands of these "leet kids" and Gentoo land and the distribution landscape gets back THE development framework of the GNU/Linux distribution land.
Many (if not the most) users will follow your trail and many developers will follow the users.
This is your chance....
Hello Mr Robbins,
You know, what?
After this message/answer I would go and kick these "leet kids" - which are used to describe themselfs as (Gentoo) developers - so in the nuts by taking Gentoo from their fat hands with an fork of Gentoo.
In contrast to these "leet kids" - who made Gentoo to this (by companies and private persons) unusable mess - you know what (espacially) companies want : A stable platform for services and also for (in house) development.
Today there is not one distribution targetted for development (marketted for devlopment purposes). This could be your chance.
Gentoo has the enourmous potential to be the distribution from which all other (todays) big, known binary distributions (RedHat, Debian) could emerge (pun intended). For this to accomplish there has to be a "stable" management which coordinates the development across all distributions (using Gentoo as base platform to get all debs and rpms). This could be your chance.
Businesses need today a development base to create dynamic services for their SOA platforms/strategies.
Gentoo has the potential to be this dynamic framework to base all SOA platforms on it.
This could be your chance.
Just take Gentoo from the hands of these "leet kids" and Gentoo land and the distribution landscape gets back THE development framework of the GNU/Linux distribution land.
Many (if not the most) users will follow your trail and many developers will follow the users.
This is your chance....
And you know what?
I agree with you.
I will think about this more. Thanks for your reply.
Wow... that has to be one of the most asshatiest reply I've ever read (the one to you, not the replies to your post) - And I would have to say, I am not sure who sent it, since attribution isn't given... But said person definitely does *not* speak for all of us... In fact, it would be nice to actually know who did say it so some of us can slap them around with a cluebat...
+1 to steev's comment ;)
I mean .. i wasn't sure if I agreed 100% with you 'returning' or not, but that...
anonymous, I really do not think that a fork of Gentoo would be particularly successful. IF we really are dying, there will be none of us left to maintain all the core system packages. No-one to maintain Portage. No-one to maintain all the other packages in the tree. Would a fork of Gentoo be able to get together a large enough (not to mention skilled enough) developer base to maintain all this stuff? And I do resent being called a "leet kid".
Daniel, whoever did send you that email does not, as far as I know, represent the developer base in its entirety.
your offer was in fact AFTER developers began work to rectify the situation.
That phrase really got me wondering what was done indeed in light that the failure was at many level (i.e. not just the foundation)?
In any case, I am giving a very strong look at LFS because I need a stable development box for which I have control over the compilation options and versioning of the apps I use and compile for other peoples.
Hey Welp,
I think a fork could definitely be very successful, BUT that option should not be considered lightly.
However, if a fork could help eliminate the sense of privilege and misguided pride that this commenter holds, then it could be very personally satisfying :)
Really, I think it's time that Gentoo goes distributed with the Portage tree. Bazaar, although new, seems really nice. Mercurial I am not so hot on, but it's yet another distributed source tool that could be used. I think the old way of a central tree tends to require too huge a development team, and it's a full-time job to police the jerks on the project who insult devs on bugs.gentoo.org and in various other forums.
I just think that going distributed would allow smaller, better-managed groups to achieve at least as much as what Gentoo as a whole is doing right now, and also help foster collaboration with other Gentoo-ish projects out there. Without someone in charge who truly cares about the project (which doesn't need to be me, by the way,) it's hard for the centralized model to serve users, enforce standards of conduct in a constructive way, etc.
Also: steev, lordvan, welp: thanks :)
One of the reasons I posted that comment is that it was kind of hurtful and pain shared is pain divided :/
The guy is obviously a moron. Just fork Daniel you don't need to put up with this, a lot more people are on your side than you think.
Daniel,
Thanks for the commitment and love you have shown for your "baby", and I really wish that more people get to read the last entry on your blog and see what effect bad attitudes can have on a "meta-distro" that I came to love.
I really hope that this will lead to a "palace revolution" of sorts (users becoming devs, etc), and that Gentoo can rid itself from the rotten apples in the cart.
While I'm sure that message doesn't represent all of the current devs, the tone of it sure reeks of elite, paranoid pack mentality.
Perhaps the sender is right. Perhaps it is time to move on. If there really is a large group of people entrenched with the same opinions (I'm hoping this guy is in the minority, but who knows), nothing that you or I or any of the dissatisfied users can do or say will be enough to get them to do anything about it. So why not let them hold the flaming bag like they want to?
I'm interested in hearing more about the distributed concept myself since it sounds like what's going on now (where separate groups are doing their own thing but not really collaborating with each other), but your way sounds like there'd be a bit more method to the madness.
I'm a user who would like to contribute as a dev to something, and the only thing really stopping me is the shenanigans I see on bugzilla and the fact that until very recently, I couldn't find any meaningful information on the protocols on how to be come a developer (except for the "if you're interested, send an email here" which doesn't really help).
If you do manage to start something, I'd be very interested in helping out because I think you've got the right ideas (or at least a vision). And besides, it sounds like fun :-)
Dear Daniel
Guess what! This answer by this developer looks highly constructed by your main existing obstructors in the Gentoo foundation. Ignore it.
If you consider starting a "New Gentoo" have you already considered using GIT as a source code management tool? I know that Mr. Ubuntu (Mark Shuttleworth) also was / is against GIT (and he is making a huge mistake there), but I can only recommend it. I believe it is the most modern SCM you can find out there.
GIT brings you the highest development speeds.
And if you want to beat your enemy you will have to be faster then he is. By bounds an leaps - a lot faster - totally decentralized.
I don't know if you are aware of it but there is an online-petition for the return of Daniel to gentoo.
http://www.petitiononline.com/ebuild01/petition.html
Dear Daniel,
I think a fork is the way to go for several reasons. If you go back on Gentoo, you will have a hard time going against those who don't agree with your vision. Gentoo is too big and politicized by now for allowing dynamic changes. And think what would happen if Gentoo failed under your hands: you'll get all the heat.
So by forking, you'd somehow start from scratch, but not completely. Be sure the best of Gentoo would follow you. And I particularly like your new ideas of package management. I have no idea about the technical benefits, but I like the idea of _trying_ something new. The idea of evolving. You will not be able to do that in Gentoo. People have tried with Palaudis et all to improve portage and few devs take it seriously. We are still using system V startup. And other legacies... Gentoo is to big to experiment a revolution.
So this is a chance to revolutionize Gentoo. It is too late to clean Gentoo, it needs a new generation.
Now be careful: this would take you a lot of your time. And once you start, I know you'll do it all the way. You have a family and a life, so think about what this would imply for you.
That said, I wish you luck with whatever decision you take. And thanks for all you've given to the Gentoo and to the Linux community.
Julian
Hello,
I'm only a mere user among the gentoo "community" but i'd like to leave a comment here.
Gentoo was your project, allright. But you left it, and by doing that, you lost the ability, or power, to influence the project. Trying to come back is, for what I think, a mistake.
Gentoo has grown and changed and maybe it's not the distro we used love, or that we were proud to use, but it's still working. The question is : for how long?
It's seems the devs are not really listenning to the user base, more than 90% of users were in favor of your return, but, for hat I read, the devs didn't really care... What will become of gentoo if all the users leave, and that only the devs remain?
Maybe it's time to start something else, if you have time for it, something similar to the original gentoo idea, but with some changes, that could prevent the mistakes that were made in the Gentoo project. I'm sure a lot of users would follow you, and that they could also start a nice community. Some devs would maybe follow you, some "new" devs would come.
Let's give up on the idea of coming back, let's start something new, call it a fork if you want, but please, bring us back the concept gentoo was meant to be
Cheers,
Good luck for whatever you will do in the future ;)
Daniel,
Im sure you're aware of the support that you have among the user community (see http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-644321.html if you're in any doubt). Many current Gentoo users, myself included, are very experienced developers who would like to contribute but are currently wary of mixing it with the 'leet kids' who seem to dominate the Gentoo developer community. I'm sure that a fork would have plenty of both user and developer support from those of us who are not happy with the current culture.
I disagree with those who say Gentoo has beconme an 'unusable mess' - I have no problems running a sizeable number of production servers and development boxes on Gentoo and find it is the only distribution that gives me the control and flexibility that I desire. However Gentoo has no commercial credibility because it is seen as an unstable hobbyist distro - I've had quite a few raised eyebrows from clients who believe that running anything but Redhat on production systems is not feasible. You are just the person that's needed to change the culture and bring the stability and credibility to a source distribution that those of us who earn all or part of our living installing and maintaining Linux hardware and software need. Please go ahead and create a fork.
Why is it that many are concerned about which tool to use to manage "New Gentoo"?
Why isn't there a concern about "New Gentoo" itself?
Daniel - we're all here for you. The most users and developers I know are not happy with the state of things and will be happy to shake things up. Maybe they are not happy about you "leading" again, but the only ones I feel are against - are those who's in charge now. They feel like some sort of power being taken from them.
And that's good. Something has to happen to make them care.
And regarding the fork - there are ex-developers who left the project because of this elite behavior of others. They may be happy to return after the new project with a new structure is created.
Go Daniel! :-)
http://dev.gentoo.org/~antarus/projects/gleps/glep-0666.txt
Thanks for being open about your thoughts and what is going on Daniel.
I sure hope that whoever sent this message isn't representing to many of the devs in Gentoo.
As a user the only time I have ever met this kind of attitude is as you also mention when filing a bug which happens now and then on bugs.gentoo.org. Sure my bug report might not have been totally correct and in many aspects I am a noob, but still I got the feeling of being treated rather rudely once or twice there, which doesn't make me want to file another bug another time ... even though my general experience there has been positive those bad experiences now and then is remembered better than the many positive experiences. I guess that is just human nature and that is a reason we need to somehow get a positive atmosphere around Gentoo and somehow get those bad apples out of the basket as one of the other commenter's said here ... that doesn't necessarily mean we need to kick them out but they have to learn to behave somehow ... this doesn't only go for dev's btw. users are just as guilty for making a bad atmosphere (who knows if the dev that treated me not so nicely had just been unfairly ranted by some stupid user).
I really want to help out somehow on the Gentoo project, but for the time being I think it is not possible for me.
If a fork should happen (I really hope it won't) then I will very strongly consider following Daniel.
I know it isn't fun at all with people like this dev being such a jerk, but if you really want to get back to Gentoo and do some good I think you need to communicate some more with the developer community of Gentoo on the mailing list or whatever and get into some kind of negotiations. Reading planet.gentoo.org it is my feeling that many developers aren't necessarily against you coming back but they just want more information about what your plans are.
I know that going into an more open talk with the developer community as a whole will lead to more hurtful words like those you just posted here on your blog, but hopefully you will be able to ignore these jerks, they shouldn't be allowed to do as much damage as they do.
Hi Daniel.
I'll be short and direct.
The actual position of gentoo is sad, gentoo lost the real sight that I discover in 2001 when I change to gentoo. IMHO, Gentoo now is full of "leet kids" and people that shows "auto-capable", but see what happens in portage.. see what happens in releases (2007.1 eh?). Everybody knows that 2007.1 are full of problems and no one fixes.. why? Why I need use a ubuntu-cd everytime I need a bootstrap because gentoo-livecd broke sometimes? Everyone knows that a distro needs regular livecd fixes, but I think this is not the point actually, as I can see.
I vote for a fork, and I can help too, if you need (as Daniel knows, I really understand when he left gentoo, because he HAVE A REAL LIFE, AND A FAMILY, I also have one too). Leet kids never understand when you have a real life.
And leet kids never understand when you have a vision.
Dear Mr Robbins,
First of all - I've got deep respect for you and I think your analysis of current state of Gentoo is very smart.
But... I think I can offer a bit different point of view -are you interested?
(disclaimer - I am not Gentoo developer, just user)
This debate about Gentoo is emotionally charged... especially for you, cos Gentoo is like your child... and in this case emotions can get into the way of correct evaluation.
I understand that kthxbuybay's post made you angry or sad... but don't you take it too personally? Is it necessary to talk about paranoia and "having an axe to grind (even if you were right)"? It's understandable but is it constructive, is it helpful to your goals?
And as for me - to be honest this is not for the first time you seem to be a bit strict or 'not constructive' when dealing with people. He might be wrong but he just expressed his opinion and I think it's legitimate. Even if he was an evil - any other expressions except pure facts and strictly logical arguments, any 'paranoid' and 'undermining' negative stickers from you - bad for you, not for him:-( (I am sorry I had to say that, please trust me, I don't wanna attack you, I wanna help you giving you some kind of feedback - I know I could use it sometimes).
People start talking about fork and they expect it to be friendlier than Gentoo - do you think this kind of behaviour is going to persuade them? Is this kind of behaviour going to attract the right community you need to succeed? Do you wanna attract only people who adore you and agree with anything you do and hate everyone you disagree with?
Friendly environment isn't only about systematic barriers - it's also about people - and you are expected to be the friendlier of friendliest to attract friendly people, aren't you?
Someone wrote that this blog is not the right place to discuss this problem - I agree, this is the place where your fans go and you don't get objective and balanced point of view here. In here almost everyone seems to want you to fork Gentoo - some people even speak for all Gentoo users - do you trust them? What real data do we have about that?
Are Gentoo developers bad guys? I needed help many times and they were always very friendly to me. Yes - there are some problems in Gentoo devs-users communication. Some of these problems are due to systematic mistakes and barriers you wrote about. But sometimes it's just users thinking they can have anything they want for free. They don't understand anything, they want everything and they label developers as arrogant bastards just because they were not able to give them what they wanted. How are you going to handle these users? Are you afraid that forked project might attract these everybody-has-to-work-for-me people from Gentoo community? How are you going to avoid that?
And how about devs - are you going to recruit them from this kind of community? Where are you going to recruit them? Who are they going to be - people claiming they wanted to help Gentoo but they could not? Like GoFlambe (no offence) claiming he wanted to help but couldn't "find any meaningful information on the protocols on how to be come a developer" - AFAIK this (Gentoo Development Documentation) or this (Gentoo Developer Handbook, especially chapter Becoming a developer) have been available for a long time - are people who are not able to find this going to be valuable developers?
A fork might be a good solution - but not fork meant as a revenge, not fork without ability to look for my mistakes and not just the others' mistakes, not fork based on incorrect premises. If it (fork) happens I would really like it to succeed but for the fork to be viable it has to be based on correct (not emotional) evaluation and constructive management.
Please let's not get carried away, let's be self-critical and ready to take discussion as a process of mutual learning, not as a fight. I have written about my feelings and impressions just because I think that right now you need to know what users think as exactly and correctly as possible in order to succeed with the fork - I do not claim to be objective. I might be wrong - I am prepared to learn that I was wrong and support your effort as I can.
Daniel said: "However, if a fork could help eliminate the sense of privilege and misguided pride that this commenter holds, then it could be very personally satisfying :)"
I sincerely hope this isn't the motivation for a fork. The only motivation that makes sense is to make a better distribution with a solid community to support it. I don't even like the idea of a fork, to be honest. I'd rather see the lessons and insights learned from Gentoo (both organizational and technical) used to drive development of a new distribution that takes the next evolutionary step. A Gentoo-like distribution incorporating some of the good ideas found in Conary, for example, would be quite interesting.
Just curious about why you don't like Mercurial. I like Bazaar too, but I've found that it gets too slow with large projects, which means I always end up using Mercurial anyway. I'd use Git, but honestly I don't have the patience or time to deal with it's UI. I've been interested in seeing Gentoo move to using a more distributed system for managing the tree, for much the same reasons as you described.
Regarding the email, that's kind of a shocker. I'm just a user of Gentoo, and I'm actually very happy with it from a technical standpoint. I look upon your offer (not sure if it is still on the table from your perspective) as a good thing, although I can understand why some of the Gentoo folks are nervous without more details of what you want to do structurally, although I'm pretty sure their concern is totally unnecessary.
I'm watching this with great interest, and hopefully there will positive change brought about however this plays out.
Unfortunately we users don't have a voice. The forums are controlled by the devs and admins. Threads are locked and there are no polls.
There is overwhelming consensus for you to clean house. The longer the forums are controlled by these people the uglier the situation gets. Soon it will spill over into the media in unpredictable ways.
Thanks for all your efforts.
Dear Mr Robbins,
actually I'm almost never post any comments on any site but in this case I can't be silent. Daniel, I think it's a great idea to start Gentoo fork (say, Funtoo distro ;) and I assure you there would be enough developers to contribute it.
You know, I can't say I told you so because for the most part I stayed silent about it at the time. But, I saw the writing on the wall.
I'll be honest, when I saw a drove of developers running from Debian (which is managed well but doesn't lead well) I knew the quagmire was coming. This may sound somewhat of a personal ax to grind, but there is a reason I've never appreciated the Bruce Perens, and FSF arrogance.
And let me define that specifically. Linux in and of itself is constantly under attack, people question Linus all the time in what he is doing and how he manages the project. The recent go round with scheduling shows this. But what Linus has always provided is leadership, and a clear unmistakable set of guidelines that anyone can follow and earn respect from him to help manage the project.
The qualms come in large part from people who want to be managers rather than developers. From people who find real leadership threatening, for whatever reason. And try to undermine those proud and confident enough to make decisions. Slashdot, for the most part, died the death of inviting managers and commentators (two types that seem to get the least respect from Linus and other leaders) and the developers soon got tired of what Alan Cox later compared to the argumentation and contention of marketing meetings.
Here is what Gentoo did really well and attracted me at first,
* A bold new Init script dependancy chain design.
* The ability to escape from Debian's set of compile options and use the parts of the software they felt they had to keep you safe from. Sometimes as tedious and petty a detail as how "free" the software is, and other times they felt people really didn't care or need LDAP3 and Kerberized SSO. Sid was their way of being adventurous, but that often didn't address the adventurous and useful features already developed in the software.
* The ability to run the latest version and compile options -- break your own computer. In many ways I prefer the 'C' style mentality of giving you an Uzi to shoot yourself in the foot with. I celebrated that a distro finally gave me that Uzi.
* Little details like nano, an instruction guide that was only a few pages long and gave you ideas for really solid tuned performance (-noatime, gcc options, evms). Those cool things that you don't read in Gentoo manuals anymore.
For the most part, the need to see people doing great distribution tricks is being filled not by Ubuntu, but by Ubuntu and Slackware derivatives, Mint/Puppy/etc... Where Gentoo is supposed to be the meta-distro they aren't choosing Gentoo. Because it is these distro tricks that the Gentoo management has been cold or even hostile too.
My Gentoo distribution has been more stable, not less so, of late. But that has more to do with having developed my own upgrade policy. It can be written this way
$ emerge -puD system
$ emerge -e system
$ emerge -e world
Updates are fewer, and take a weekend. And I have to develop a way to remember all the settings I used each time. I'm not complaining, that is what I appreciate about Gentoo. It doesn't do the work for me.
Linux has always been the hike. Sure I can get there by car, over well developed roads. But I appreciate the journey and destination better when I personally take each step. Are there not enough of us to justify Gentoo in and of itself?
If I could title my above post, it would be, "Fear the wannabe managers, the L33t are not your problem".
Because, if you want stability you can't beat Debian, Suse or RHEL. Not, unless you are L33t enough yourself.
Dear Daniel,
This form of elitism is very unfortunate and I am sorry you have been hurt by it.
I cannot claim to have the right answer but, having been a gentoo user for over five years now I too can attest to a decline in its quality, its leadership, and its once-famed agility.
This disheartening trend does not mean I have given up hope on my favorite distro however it does seem that things must change.
Part of the hostility I have witnessed, I believe, is rooted in the self-awareness that Gentoo is a mess right now, both in its foundation and in its direction and leadership. Perhaps it is that your offer to assist with the Foundation only is not enough -- that it touches on the nerve that Gentoo needs reorganization on all levels if it wishes to recapture its legendary mobility.
There's an old adage that a dictatorship under the rule of a wise and fair ruler is the most effective form of government. It has the greatest potential for success but also the greatest potential for failure if the ruler is not just and not wise.
I am not suggesting that you need feel the responsibility to take such a heavy burden upon yourself and you have stated many times that you must support yourself and support your life but I do believe you hold some rights and power over your previous creation. Perhaps the solution is a reorganization ending in the selection of central figurehead -- a position at the head of the foundation with veto power over the decision of the chief architect. This is not to say that there mustn't be a council and mustn't be a foundation that advise and deal with the day-to-day runnings of the project but a professional manager, a CEO-type, could revitalise and focus all the already wonderful efforts of all parties.
Please don't mistake this for a plea for you to take on such a burden yourself. If it's something you desire to do then by all means, but do consider making a second offer to gentoo-nfp and the council... To work with William, and Grant, and a few (this is key!) select others to reorganize Gentoo to have a centralized power base; a dedicated leader.
You hold an unknown percentage of the community, developer and user in your hands right now by being the one to call for change and making us believe you could make it happen. But it is only part of the community. We are fractured and I fear that it is this fracture that could truly be the doom of gentoo.
Somehow we need to all be brought together and the only way this could happen is by working with those currently in power. If the council will take too long to work with as a whole, make the demand they elect representative officers with executive power to the revitalization/reinvention project.
Be a part of that project, Daniel, and take some foundation members and council members and a sabayon person and even a user or two and use your various points of expertise and perspectives to restructure for the benefit of all, even if not 'desirable' by any one entity (devs, or users, etc).
I do not think fork is the way. I was even somewhat uneasy about Sabayon's existence -- in my mind Sabayon is, in so many ways, what ~unstable should be. Though I realize it has many other commendable goals such as getting users to a working preconfigured desktop very quickly I think gentoo should learn from its lessons.
Please, don't give up on Gentoo as a whole. I think that people on all sides are hurting and worried -- tensions are high and the distro's fate could be at stake. You (with others) do have some power (whether desired or not) to heal some wounds.
It is my hope that with a little conversation you can all come to an amenable end.
Regards,
~BK
Well, shame, but I'm not really surprised by such a reply.
This is only typical behaviour of someone willing to keep the power he thinks to have over things, despite the fact that sharing this power would improve Gentoo as a whole. In fact, such a post only goes *against* Gentoo's improvement. Remember... With great power comes great responsibility ;-). But I don't think it should be considered as the general dev's point of view.
Also, I have a slightly different view about forking. First, I am pretty sure this would divide efforts, and so, will probably succed in making two worse-stated projects. In a word, I guess that a fork would be the less effective way to deal with Gentoo' current "problems". But if gentoo developers' only goal is to avoid working with Daniel, I really think this is a shame. On the other hand, we musn't forget that forking would also mean losing the benefits of gentoo's infrastructures (servers, mirrors, etc...). Here too : a huge loss ! And finally : if many users applause on the forums or elsewhere the idea to fork, how many are there to have technical skills / free time and the willing to spend (a lot of) time on a completely new project ? Please before talking about a fork, consider the cost of such an decision.
But it's true that developers seem not to consider really seriously, or, if they do, users are not informed. Really shame... Or maybe in the current situation, no one is authorized to make such decisions ? Communication *is* really always a problem ;).
Daniel : I am pretty sure you are a very competent leader, but you forgot to provide users (an developers) details about what you want to do with gentoo, what would be your priorities. I really think users would like to know more ; and devs too ! Gentoo's not dead yet, but it has real structural problems. Instead of dividing efforts, please consider working together ;-).
Cheers,
It does seem like a lot of Gentoo developers behave like kids with a cool toy. Especially the ones who don't understand why letting the foundation lapse is a big deal.
If you do fork, you should take the Gentoo name and trademarks with you to provide an unforgettable example of why such things matter.
R.I.P. Gentoo. It was a good run!
In my opinion, Gentoo died the moment it became the "ricer's" OS.
-ikonz
Daniel, take the best parts of gentoo, leave the worst behind and use the overwhelming support I think you'll have follow you and make yourself and the community a new baby. Distributize, make it cutting edge and embrace users opinions encouraging polls and even let people vote for options, priorities and even the name of the fork. (I vote gentwo ;) Of course you'll need new infrastructure but I'm sure a good start could be had with even minimal donations from your huge followers/fanbase. Honestly I have little skill especially for a long time user and also little time but I'd do what I could when I could do it. Immediately I would put $50 on the first server if you decide to take the idea of a fork seriously and make it a reality.
As a 4 years user of Gentoo Linux I can only thank you Daniel for this amazing project.
Gentoo is just what I was looking for since my first Linux contact 10 years ago.
With Gentoo I really started to learn and understand the core of Linux systems functionality.
One of the best things of Gentoo is it Portage Tree, although sometimes it's hard to get some new software, update or bug-fix to enter in the Tree, even when users care about make an ebuild, patches or whatever and made it available through Bugzilla. Some kinds of packages are really bad maintained or even worst, not maintained at all.
From the other side, is difficult to enter the developer team as it looks like a very exclusive club (I know almost the Gentoo users are called elitist), so it's get really hard to do something to solve main Portage Tree problems, and sometimes the user only has the option to create they own overlay to meet his need.
In my name, I can tell you Daniel that I approve you to get back as a main leader for such a project since you have been shown us loyalty, good will and effort do to a nice work.
Since it will probably be not a choice for the users community, I can only hope that the actual developers team and/or the foundation leaders create a better channel to listen the users community.
However if you have plans to do a kind of fork of Gentoo, be sure you'll be not alone.
I'll put my money where my mouth is. I'm good for $50 also.
so it's like: "you make me your leader or i fork it"
of course you have every right to do that but i had to be very naive to believe that this kind of attitude comes from a person who really cares about gentoo future.
if you want to help, be a gentoo developer, be a trustee..
you are just in contradiction with yourself :)
Forking Gentoo is the worst solution!
Please Daniel; do your best to be involve in this project. I hope stubborn developers will leave or change their mind...
If you're just taking care of the foundation and making suggestions about the future development, I can't understand why some developers seem to be so afraid about you coming back.
I joined the gentoo-nfp mailing list when you suggested that we do so, and unfortunately, I felt like not too many others listened. There were a few of us who stood up for you, but there was definitely a feeling that whenever I posted anything positive about you, somebody would post this kind of paranoid response.
I was also kind of shocked to see that they all basically deny that anything is wrong. Seriously. "There are no problems, nope, nothing to see, this is just DistroWatch making drama out of nothing, yup! And Daniel is just trying to take all the power! Yup! That's it!" is what they sound like.
And then they go on elsewhere to say "Well, we've been dealing with this stuff already, so neeyah!"
It's really depressing. Paranoia, pride, and denial are a terrible mix.
I wish there was a "Vote of No Confidence" mechanism that we users could employ at this time. They are NOT representing the will of the community, but instead, they are ignoring us under the guise of "preserving a democratically organized institution."
Daniel, I'd really like to see you come and make a few posts in gentoo-nfp too, because I feel like if you were there posting too, they'd have a harder time saying the kinds of things they're saying because it wouldn't be behind your back any longer.
I really hope that Gentoo can stay together, and I'd really like to see you as one of its leaders.
What bothers me about this situation the most is the lack of communication from the Foundation and Developers.
The only communication from the Foundation was from Grant Goodyear who said he filed the paper work late but since it hadn't expired for two years it shouldn't be a problem to get the Foundation re-instated. There has been nothing from the dev side, but the website was updated several times and the GWN was reborn as the GMN.
What gives? A user poll on the forums showed 90% in favor of drobbins proposal. Why have the Foundation and devs not addressed this poll and given an answer?
drobbins,
I've been a Gentoo user since around the time 1.4 came out and keep coming back to it when I've tested out Ubuntu or Suse. If you end up having to fork gentoo to make a better distro, I think I would certainly move to it.
I don't think that doing it as a personal vendetta against a few of the current Gentoo devs is the right reason though. I hope you'll keep an open mind and keep talks open between you and the more sane members of the Gentoo community. Certainly if no forking is needed it would be a better situation. A fork would bring about a lot of confusion for users and disenfranchisement of current developers.
Daniel,
I really hope that you go forward with this. I am not a coder, but I can test, and I can write manuals. I think you will find many of us out here would move forward with you.
Good luck - Brett
Going to have to agree with a number of the comments in regards to "forking".
The developers were a big reason why Gentoo's decline has happened. From personal experience within the forums, irc and the mailing list, its just like watching the Debian internal committee discussion.. Just arguments, and ego flailing about and nothing gets done.
Please Daniel.. please consider forking into something new. I'll be more than glad to offer what services, knowledge and expertise I can to help you and any of those interested in this path.
if you want to help, be a gentoo developer, be a trustee..
I think you guys don't understand what happen here.
Just because Daniel need to give some effort to his family, all the rest forsaken him, because "Daniel must be a nerd leet". And even today, a lot of devels see him with other eyes, JUST BECAUSE HE THINK ABOUT HIS OWN LIFE. This is the true. I just read a lot of things about Daniel and about the "leet guys".
And because this type of attitude will grant the end of gentoo, or gentoo will be another "leet distro for leet dudes" like debian or slackware (I have friends that devel in slackware, nothing wrong, but the most users are leet, you know).
I vote, again, for a fork. :)
I've had fun with Gentoo since 2001, back then it was the distro that finally taught me to teach myself linux.
Mid 2006 and forward it wasn't so fun anymore, since it became more and more difficult to be on the "edge" with hardware and software in Gentoo, and in the end I've moved away from Gentoo on home computer/desktops. But that doesn't matter so much - it's for development and tweaking Gentoo shines, and I can still have lots of fun there even though I'm not a Gentoo dev.
I'm especially fond of new ideas and development around portage / paludis / entropy and if you fork I hope you'll consider these and start fresh with something better than todays heavy portage, together with a community / project structure where more people can more easily contribute. Let's show everyone that development can be fun too - Funtoo Linux :D
Mr Robbins I would love to see a LFS style
Gentoo fork. The two things that originally made me really like Gentoo was the fact that I could learn linux not just
how to install an OS, but how that OS worked. And the fact it was completely custom with no two users installs being the same. I would hope you could expand on these ideas even more. Again count me In!
@zeek:
http://planet.gentoo.org/
http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-nfp/
Is this what you get when you try to help? Even if I can't agree with the idea of a revenge-based fork, I must admit that it would be soooo funny to see this person's reaction if your were to do so (especially if you take the trademarks with you).
Too sad that we really can't punch people over tcp/ip, this 12-years old minded "dev" could have benefited a lot.
I won't even comment his declarations : everything has been said by everybody else -- he's a complete idiot who obviously doesn't know what he's speaking about.
If you were to ignite a fork, I think I would follow like many people : simply because we begin to be ashamed of the people who maintain the distro we use.
Gentoo failed
Some years ago Gentoo was one of the leading edge distributions. But now - from a users point of view it has become a project without any leadership. Its future is unpredictable and the worst thing is that the dev community is "unhealthy". Maybe Gentoo grew too fast too big and is now in uncontrolable state. So why would one choose Gentoo today? There is no good reason. That is why Gentoo failed. Although this is a very sad thing, it is also the chance for a new start. So I think a fork would be more fun for you, be more successful and more satifying. And fun is all that life is about.
Hello Mr. Robbins,
I'd be with you if you start a fork, but I'd prefer if you would first try to save gentoo.
In Grant Goodyears latest post on Planet Gentoo he clarifies his conditions for a vote. Give this vote a chance to turn out in your favor before considering a fork.
Don't give up without trying, please.
I think you should just continue helping out just the way you are now. People do listen to you, despite the fact you don't have any official position in Gentoo.
The best you can do is keep blogging and filing some bugs as you see fit.
Daniel,
I'm gentoo user for 5 years now. If things are going the way they are now in gentoo, and you are not making a fork, I'll switch to t2 linux or some other gentoo like distro. The thing I liked in t2 linux is that it can calculate the dependencies from packages that you installed yourself. Please consider this feature if you're making your fork. Gentoo was a great distro once but today it's really annoying to use it today.
I'll be the completely outside perspective, so feel free to ignore this based on my lack of knowledge/experience of Gentoo.
As a general geek who would like to get more involved in the Linux community, Gentoo was the obvious choice, because it forces me to learn. However, the only way I can learn is through a community that encourages positive communication. I stayed away from quite a few good distros because of the elitism.
If a fork of the OS is made, just keep in mind the fact that the community will fork as well. (and as anigel mentioned, so will the hardware and support infrastructures)
I would assume that the methods and attitudes behind a fork and the communication during and after a fork will have a great impact on who chooses which project to stay on.
I know nothing of forks or managing communities of developers, but I do know about being in a community, and I would hate to jump on the bandwagon just to discover wagon I chose wound up being the elitist/purist snobs out for revenge.
I'm not saying this is the case, it appears as though you and many of the people leaving comments on your blog are all very level headed. I'm mainly just trying to voice my opinion because as someone hoping to start a family soon myself, I'd like to be involved in a community that doesn't discourage an outside life while still allowing me to learn and grow and eventually contribute.
If a fork does happen, it would be awesome if it included goals such as integrity and respect. ...and all that stability and freedom stuff people seem to like as well! =)
(If you are waiting for the part where I stop rambling and make a coherent point... you probably won't find it in this comment. But kudos for reading the whole thing.)
Daniel, if you really start a fork, many users like myself will support you by developing and maintaining the new distro with you.
The current gentoo developer bazaar is too hard to join.
hi Daniel, imho a lot of gentoo users are with you. I am, so..let's fork it ;)
For the dude that pointed me at:
http://planet.gentoo.org/
http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-nfp/
I'm looking for a little more offical answer than a blog posting ...
The more I think about it, the more I think forking Gentoo may be the way to go. I realize it would be a major undertaking but I suspect that in the long run it may prove the best choice. A name comes to mind. How about GenTree? It acknowledges it's origin, is a play on the word three, and has a growing, branching aspect.
nestal wan,
Don't you mean 'cathedral'? A bazaar is what Gentoo is currently not.
drobbins. as you know I myself have considered a fork and would gladly help in the process of creating one.
about a year ago when these issues started coming out. I started working towards that goal (at the rate of a snail).
I came up with a name: 'regen' However, the domain regen.org is taken. So I went to regen2.org.
I still own this domain (much information in the dns records are incorrect because I'm not using it and haven't updated it), and would be willing to donate it for 'drobbins' fork. If people like the name.
as for the distributed tree... for development it isn't bad. However I'd like to that from the user interface perspective it be (at least) searchable as a whole if not all the seperate tree's continue to download in one sync. My reason is this. I really, really hate repositories. Seperate trees are just that... It makes it extremely difficult to find some packages with seperate repositories. I still haven't found a repository with secure locate in opensuse, and it took months before I found one with tcptraceroute. repositories are bad from a user perspective.
You created it, you deserve it. I've signed the petition altho I don't believe it's worth anything. I believe that even if most of the community wants you back, the term "back" talks by itself. You already got the name "Funtoo", make it yours once and for all...
Uhh, I think I know who sent you thank ;)
Don't fork, new distro, new concept.
we've all learned a lot from gentoo, and many other distros we've all used.
GPL is GPL
You might have to kiss goodbye the word "Gentoo" and the Logo..thems the breaks.
You have alot of support daniel, some of us just want to create a super fine distro and chat on IRC VERY rarely, are political ATHEISTS and prefer to walk the dog than aspire to be popular (or an unpopular tyrant) online.
All the best.
:)
Forking, for the lack of a better word, is good.
The best FOSS projects have the most forks because they are so useful to so many different kinds of people that one monolithic institution or person couldn't possibly fill all the various diverging needs of the market. Think of BSD, linux, mozilla & wine -- all notoriously forky but they seem to be working out don't they, despite the friction of forkiness.
As for Gentoo, well, it has proven the theory that a Linux "Distro" can work like ports, and that this has the potential to work as well or better than a system like "yum/rpm".
But I stress the word 'potential': how to actually pull it off seems less clear. I have some ideas on that as well, but that's way off-topic.
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