The Response...
Here is an update.
It appears that there are two interim trustees - Grant Goodyear and Paul de Vrieze.
Paul de Vrieze sent me an email apologizing for the sorry state of the Foundation and supported the acceptance of my offer and my return. He communicated all this prior to my deadline. (And Paul - apology accepted.)
With Grant, the situation is a bit more confusing. Grant did not get back to me until today (Monday - past deadline,) but did post this message to his blog and the gentoo-nfp list last week. Essentially, he downplayed the state of affairs, re-filed paperwork to renew the charter of the Foundation as well as fulfill my original request to remove me as President of the Foundation.
I was able to speak to him on the phone today, and he told me that it would be "legally weird" for him to hand over the reigns of Gentoo to me without a vote of the members, which prior trustees have decided are essentially Gentoo developers who have been volunteering for the project for a year or more. However, he did not attempt to organize a vote last week, to my knowledge. He also tried unsuccessfully to start a conversation about what the Foundation's role should be, presumably in an effort to fill the Foundation's leadership vacuum.
He did ask me today (again, 1/21/2008 - past deadline) if I would be willing to extend the deadline of my offer for an unspecified period of time and put my offer up to a Gentoo Foundation member (1+ yr developer) vote, in which my offer and other competing offers would be presented to members and one would be selected by vote.
So, at this point I don't have a clear or unified answer from the current Foundation trustees. However, I did place a deadline on my offer for a reason - so my offer couldn't be used to drag me into an extremely long-term and political Gentoo decision-making process against my will. Basically, I wanted an answer - "Yes" or "No." Do you want me back? If so, let me get to work. If not - OK, let me know. I'll do other things. I didn't want to be left hanging.
I am left to interpret Grant's response as a "No" answer to my offer as it was originally presented to the trustees. It appears that Grant is making an effort to tackle Foundation legal issues by pro-actively renewing the Foundation's charter. By trying to start a conversation about what the Foundation's role should be, as well as exploring the possibility of some kind of member vote to resolve the Foundation's lack of direction, he seems to be trying resolve the current Gentoo leadership crisis by continuing to serve as a trustee. He did not express interest in resigning.
It should come as no surprise that I don't really have any confidence in the Foundation as it currently functions, so I am not willing to participate in some kind of Foundation-managed process to figure out what to do next with Gentoo. So I am not willing to change my offer to accommodate the direction the Foundation (Grant, essentially) wants to take.
So I let Grant know that I'd like him to make sure that my name is removed from all Foundation paperwork, and he has let me know that he will ensure that this is taken care of in a week or two (in fact, the paperwork that he has already mailed should take care of it.)
Also, if what Grant said is correct - that the Foundation is basically stuck with developers and just developers as voting members, then it will be very hard to fix the user/developer disconnect in the Gentoo community via the Foundation as it currently exists. This would mean that the Foundation is pretty much stuck in a rut, unable to fulfill its responsibility of looking out for the health of the entire Gentoo community as a whole. So, it is very possible that the Foundation would essentially be doomed regardless of my involvement. I don't know if Grant's legal opinion is correct or not, though, but it sure seems like a mess.
In any case, that's the update. I think I'll take a few days to decompress and reflect on things.
40 comments:
Take the lessons learned and move on. The developer community fracturing will be laid at your feet no matter what. The user community is (IMHO) getting shafted and the developers do not as a group seem to care.
Go read about the "Abilene Paradox" on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abilene_paradox) because it may help.
I'd rather see you start over from scratch, than try and fix Gentoo. But if you do, set it up right this time. Tyranny by committee is the worst sort of tyrrany, because at the end of the day, no one has responsibility.
This all shows that the organizational politics still continue. The number of developers and users will only bleed away. There's no way of developing consensus without a clean break. Just fork it! If there's a trademarking issue, change the name (Gen3 ?).
Best of luck!
Thanks for being there for us. I do hope someday Gentoo will open up us lowly users.
Daniel, thanks for your efforts. The gentoo devs seem to have thier heads in the clouds. I think its time to move on. Best wishes!
As Grant noted, somewhere in the mail, the paperwork he mailed in July went AWOL. If that paperwork had not gone AWOL - meaning your name was not on the registration anymore, how would you have approached this in your original offer, if you would even have made it?
Daniel, please do consider my suggestion of working with the Sabayon guys. I mean, only if they approve it, of course.
This would mean that the Foundation is pretty much stuck in a rut, unable to fulfill its responsibility of looking out for the health of the entire Gentoo community as a whole.
That is not the role of the Foundation, according to the foundation page. The foundation exists to protect the Gentoo IP, manage financial and legal matters, and help ensure that technical development adheres to the social contract.
You seem to be making an extremely liberal interpretation of the foundation's stated purpose in your quoted assertion. "Health of the Gentoo community as a whole" never seems to enter in to it -- actually, that phrase of yours has me baffled. What does it mean, exactly? What does the "whole" you're talking of mean?
There doesn't seem to be one body or person that has such overarching powers, so placing all the blame on the foundation is somewhat far-fetched, don't you think? That's why we have a separation of powers anyway -- one body to keep track of each wildly disparate part of Gentoo. I don't think the foundation should take the hit because you've decided that every part of Gentoo has failed. Rather, the blame should be placed on the single body in charge of that part. The foundation's not a scapegoat, y'know.
Josh:
Not having the vast majority of the users leave is probably what he meant, most directly.
The last couple of years have caused about 20 servers worth of Gentoo placed in the 02 time frame into an Army installation to be removed due to the support issues. Replacement was Windows/RHEL, mostly Windows.
It is good news, of course, that a trustee supports the offer.
Hope more will do the same :)
But it's really sad to see that they lost the original deadline because "that's the way gentoo works".
That's a sign of what users talking about all that time but some insiders don't really want to listen... :<
Josh
I would tend to stand on the side of the man who founded the Foundation (Daniel) when it comes to what the intended purpose of the Foundation was.
Daniel didn't say every part of Gentoo failed either. He said 1) The ex-foundation that let itself expire failed to even preserve itself what alone do anything useful and 2) the devs walk among the clouds and don't care about the userbase and barely consider mere users to be human.
Take five minutes to reflect how you would feel if in such a short time people ran _your_ project into the ground.
Josh
I wouldn't be extreme to say the guy who founded the now-former Foundation would know what the intended purpose of it was. The fact the Foundation was incapable of even preserving itself seems rather like quite an indication of how well it able to serve Gentoo at all, at least in state it both has been and presently is found to be in --oh that's right, there _is_ no foundation, just an "I forgot and didn't notice for _months_ on end."
I feel that Daniel has spoken the truth about the state of Gentoo. It's an utter wreck. And just as he described, it's a land of devs who only really care about devs and say to hell with users because users really don't matter.
Wouldn't it be ironic if a spin-off, say Sabayon, were to welcome those of us the devs have shat on. The bastard distro that devs don't even acknowledge as being pure enough could dwarf the ego-maniacical Gentoo dev team and be what Gentoo used to be about... that is, something that people actually care about.
As a lowly user of Gentoo trying to get more actively involved with the project, I've found that it is very difficult to even be allowed to help. I spent months trying to decide in which distribution I would invest the bulk of my time, and ultimately chose Gentoo as it best suited my needs. I also believed that it had the strongest community of both developers and users.
In its current state, Gentoo is far from "over" or "doomed," but it is in desperate need of direction. I would love to see you (drobbins) come back and help, but as I previously stated, I'm nothing but a user, so I don't get a say.
Jokes aside - reading all the mailing lists and especially observing the current state of the distro if you started genthree (as opposed to gentoo) most of the devs and community would follow you.
Just use the current gentoo as a base.
I feel sorry learning this, I really hoped for you return, but it looks like that the priesthood you spoke of is too attached to its power and won't even think twice about the greater good.
That looks unfair to me, since gentoo was your project to begin with. Whatever the devs says, they're stealing it for them and this does not feel right.
Anyway, I wish you best luck for what awaits you next. I won't leave gentoo now (that would be childish and maybe things will go better after all?), but I'm going to consider seriously alternatives in the near future (I understand you can't fork a distro on your own, but it could have been fun to see Enoch rebirh :)).
To be a scapegoat one must not be the agent of error. So in this case the foundation's not a scapegoat.
Dear Daniel!
One thing is for sure: Gentoo needs you back, one way or the other. Gentoo used to be better than Ubuntu (because it was always better then Debian) but at the moment the boat is without a captain and Gentoo needs a good captain and that good Captain is you.
Don't focus too much on the legal issues focus on Gentoo.
Best
Zeno
I don't see how filing the paperwork for a Foundation can be sluffed off like sending a postcard back home on vacation. It needed to be followed up on. "The paperwork went AWOL" is not a valid excuse -- the current Foundation buggered up *huge*.
Grant needs to get out of the way.
@PabloNHess
For all i know Fabio and Daniel are already on speaking terms.
I really don't understand how can Gentoo devs ignore the 91% of users who voted in favor of your return...
Hi Daniel... it takes a while for a tree to topple, so take a break and watch for the crash.
It's pretty obvious to everyone that it's all about these people wanting to keep the personal ego and status of being Gentoo Directors.
The spin and snow job is so thick that you need a shovel to get through the latest GWN.
Given the political trouble Gentoo has gotten into, mainly due to developers claiming something is not a big deal while a huge number of users seems inclined otherwise, it's not very high on my list of options anymore. Given that I'm perfectly fine with the idea of running an LFS install, things like this tend not to disturb me much, but: Since I am contemplating (mostly for fun, since I probably don't have that much spare time) starting my own from-source type distro (Obviously geared towards all the things _I_ want), or at least a set of scripts allowing me to keep an LFS install sanely manageable, how about a few posts about how Gentoo got started, from a technical POV? That might be interesting to people like me as well as cyber-historians ;-)
I just noticed either you or admin for Planet Larry yanked your blog. Neither your name or the earlier blog posting is there anymore.
Too bad, I would have like to seen Gentoo more focused again. All the stuff they have been doing lately is just to make it look like they haven't forgotten the users. If you hadn't made the gesture, the front page of gentoo.org would have still been back from Oct. 07.
Most of the dev's in opposition are all try to explain that the technical side of Gentoo is still getting done and that lot of dev's don't like to do the paperwork stuff required by the foundation,.. but when you offer to take care of it and maybe fix a few other things they have been neglecting they get up in arms about it. They get all angry and such say you are just power hungry and going to chase dev's off.
Well, can't say you didn't offer. They shot you down. Now they will have to put up or shut up.
I can see how some dev's get big heads and believe they are above all the users. People here at my job are always telling me how good I am and such and kinda gives me a big head also. But one thing I do is still communicate with the production people (my users). I explain things to them and talk to them like human beings. Some might say I get paid for that, but that isn't it. There are a other people in my same job and they don't communicate with the users. I do it cause I want them to understand why or what I am doing.
Daniel, thanks for your efforts. I think that the next step is to fork your Gentoo :)
The Gentoo users are behind you, so go for it my friend.
By the way, Funtoo is a great name for a fork.
Too many politic, Too many people and not enough ( or bad? ) communication.Gentoo's quality decrease ( that's just my opinion accept it plz ).
Can you feel the fork ?
I have been convinced for a while that they are doomed.
As jnials said, I believe you should start from scratch. With your experience both as developer and Gentoo leader I'd be looking forward to such a project.
And again, doesn't the Gentoo name belong to you?
I think the best solution for users right now would be if Gentoo is forked. There have been all to many disputes and flamewars I have seen just casually browsing Planet Gentoo. Gentoo needs a real leader and I would say you are the right person for the job but since that does not seem possible the next best option is to fork, to start over fresh. This fork would have direction and a proper decision making leader. I would also be willing to bet that enough devs are upset with the current state of affairs and would be willing to help out, the others could just continue working with Gentoo if they disagree.
But then again, what do I know? I am just a user. I am out of the loop, they don't tell us stuff anymore...
I'm really sorry to hear this. I had great hopes for the future of Gentoo, but it looks like we're going to be getting "more of the same" from the Foundation.
Maybe someday they (Grant) will come around and let us users become more involved.
Josh said...
That is not the role of the Foundation, according to the foundation page. The foundation exists to protect the Gentoo IP, manage financial and legal matters, and help ensure that technical development adheres to the social contract.
Of course that is not the role of the Foundation today; and that is precisely the problem. Nobody is taking those responsibilities, but by the Foundation turning down a real opportunity to make some needed and radical changes, they have shouldered the responsibility of preserving the status quo.
Unless they are completely daft, they must know that the present system is broken. Sure, Grant is appearing to take some steps to try to rectify the situation, but according to their own stated mission, what needs to be done lies somewhere outside of the scope of what they can do.
Asking them to get out of the way is not a punishment or an indictment. It is simply what is needed for Gentoo to survive.
Gentoo (and pretty much all other Open Source Software) has always been 'for the developers' because the developers decide what gets coded and how. They may ask input from users, and even appreciate it... But they work on what they want to.
Allowing users a vote in how Gentoo evolves means taking control out of the hands of those doing the work and giving it to those who don't understand the inner workings, and probably not even the vision.
Users already have as much control as they need: Blogs, talking to the devs, etc. They -are- heard. They just aren't always right, and the devs know the difference.
I've been a Gentoo user since 2003 and I never knew about the behind-the-scenes stuff until recently. I did, however, notice a sort of decline in the last year, but was never able to put my finger on it.
Reading Planet Gentoo, it would appear that the devs are trying to rectify some of the problems that have been pointed out to them (finally), but the fact of the matter is that if Daniel hadn't piqued up in the first place, then the status quo would continue to this day.
So whether or not Daniel were to come back or not, either way you look at it, some good still came out of it.
In my opinion, I think Gentoo needs strong leadership, as after reading a bunch of the dev's postings, a lot of them "just want to code" and I've seen a lot of "I want things to change, but I don't know how to do it". That's all fine and dandy, but every project needs strong leadership, a guiding force that keeps them focused in a certain direction and I think they're missing that. That same strong leadership would be able to tell them exactly how to change things.
In any event, add me to the list that would like to see a fork and/or Daniel involved in a Linux project. I love Gentoo (the distro) and there really is nothing like it (if there were, I'd switch to it as I'm not impressed at the QC these days and the fact that I have to add a lot of 3rd party overlays to get at the packages I want). As for names, Funtoo or Genthree appeal to me.
I don't presume to know the mind Daniel any more than someone who has been using Gentoo for half a decade. I see lots of people here talking about a fork, do any of you know that's what Daniel even wants? A fork would be a long drawn out political battle, much like wrestling the board back under control. Also, it might be that maintaining an arbitrary Linux distribution is not the same as doing the same for Gentoo. I'm sure Daniel could start up another distro from scratch (or maybe go forward with BSD idea from years ago?), but that might not be the point.
Having the leadership of Gentoo handed back to you on a silver platter might be the only way this works. Doing all the driving behind a major distribution like Gentoo is going to be a lot of work, Daniel has a life, a job, and probably many other interests. If he were to walk back into Gentoo as the undisputed leader again, it would be far far far less work than starting, forking, or fighting for control.
I don't want to use another distribution. Gentoo makes me very happy, when I look at the other Linux distributions they look like "gen one" distributions compared to Gentoo. The design of the distribution, in particular the package management is so beautifully genius.
That being said, I don't want Daniel to have to go through hell to make this happen. If the political force behind Gentoo falters, and our path becomes unclear, I still would not sacrifice someone else for it.
Daniel: Whatever you do, please just make sure you're happy with it and are doing it for the right reasons.
I think everyone agrees, there needs to be changes made in the foundation and with the general direction of Gentoo.
What I don't understand is ripping on Grant Goodyear when he is only trying to help fix things and get all of the paperwork completed and get things back on track. Grant has admitted that he as well as others have slacked and not taken a proactive approach until now. Even though he let the ball drop, he is still the one who can more quickly get paperwork filed and get things back on track. Grant also stated that he intends to have a vote to get new trustees elected, including himself. I think the Gentoo community should at least cut him a little slack since he's doing his best to get things on track right now. He also did post a blog entry stating the reasons for waiting until Monday to reply to Daniel. Why is Grant posting a blog entry not enough, when Daniel has only been corresponding via blog entry also? Grant also posted and discussed his blog entry in the gentoo-nfp mailing list, since that is the official gentoo channel for discussing this.
@Daniel
Why have you not bothered to discuss this on the gentoo-nfp mailing list as even you have told the users to do? I've also noticed that you have not even bothered to respond to comments in your own blog since a post on Dec 30th. Come and discuss this with everyone on the gentoo-nfp mailing list. Discuss your proposition and exactly what you intend to do to make things better. Respond to questions and concerns about your ideas. Persuade those that are skeptical about your ideas through community discussion.
Reading this, you might think that I don't want you to come back and help out Gentoo. I really hope that you do come back, I just don't agree with the method or tactics that you are using right now. I believe you have a lot to offer Gentoo and it will be sad if that doesn't happen simply because you failed to discuss your ideas with the community.
The past months/years of Gentoo development have shown just why Gentoo needs clear leadership, the entire trustees issue proves it.
They never filed the paperwork, even after being reminded about it months ago. Nobody has bothered to consider it until your recent posts this month.
Without leadership everything just moves forward slowly at a snails pace.
Dan,
Thanks for all your previous effort. As a user, Gentoo was instrumental in my *nix education. It was a gateway to Linux From Scratch. Now I'm back using a mainstream distribution, but I won't name it in honor of your previous work.
Do keep us posted on the direction you choose to take.
Thanks again,
Harv
Daniel,
Fork the project.
Many thousands of users would follow you, and among them are software developers by profession who would have been Gentoo devs if not for the toxic and dysfunctional environment at Gentoo.
I suggested in another thread that you investigate joining the Sabayon distro in some kind of a leadership role. Perhaps they would welcome you, and you could help build that into what you had hoped Gentoo could be.
One other thing:
Why have you not given any details about your proposed changes and plans for Gentoo?
Many of us have asked for details, as it would make it much more likely that your offer could be accepted.
http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-nfp/msg_01401.xml
Here is the answer to William L. Thomson Jr's question:
"...my offer couldn't be used to drag me into an extremely long-term and political Gentoo decision-making process against my will."
I would'nt wade into the pit of vipers that is a Gentoo mailing list either.
Daniel, thanks for your efforts and dedication. Please don't give up on Gentoo.
It's a shame your offer wasn't accepted. It seemed very reasonable and logical. I use Sabayon and am very concerned by the current state of Gentoo.
I agree with pablonhess, and suggested in the Sabayon forum last march after reading that drobbins had rejoinded gentoo and left again after being treated badly.
Ultimately it's a decision that must be made by Daniel Robbins and Fabio Erculiani. I suspect that if drobbins did become involved in Sabayon it might attract some skilled and much needed developers.
Reading developer blogs this week, I saw many developers avoiding the topic, talking about dev and users relationships, the GMN. Gentoo is run by developers who build portage not for the community but most of the time for their own personal needs. We as users feel a bit like the red-headed stepchild but have accepted it as our computers run well. But we as users want (and can contribute) a better website, better forums, Gentoo projects...
If Gentoo resists, please consider forking Gentoo. We appreciate the work your doing.
daniel, your very suggestions actually made a difference. gentoo website came back to life, foundation got "resurrected" etc. devs are more open towards users (but they didn't give a damn about our votes).
if they don't care about your opinion and suggestions - go for the fork. i would feel much better with more transparent environment, with more friendly developer community, and proper package manager instead of an ugly python-hack.
i think, however, that grant was right about his decision. just as you were.
it's just all the beaurocracy around gentoo has that is awful, you simply bash your head against the wall trying to do anything, as shown in the example.
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